Gorillas have problem solving skills like humans?
Gorilla Use Tools Like Early Human Ancestors
"In one instance, a female gorilla named Leah tried to wade across a pool of water but found herself waist deep after just a few steps. She retreated, grabbed a branch sticking out of the water, and used it to gauge the water's depth before wading deeper..."Saw it on PBS this morning (Oct. 16, 2005). Footage of a Gorilla wading in water and she picked up a stick and measured the depth of water she wanted to wade forward into. Another Gorilla captured on film, places a stick in the ground to leverage her weight while getting water to drink.
Maybe it's a statement on female intelligence.
__
Both Darwin and Gene Kelly were wrong.
MAN is still an ape.
-Sharon
Ex_OWM wrote:
Maybe it's a statement on female intelligence.Great quote from one of the reports on 'Chimps Sense of Justice':
" Only females were selected for this study, because previous work had shown males to be less attuned to inequality than females. "
NashtOn writes: But, of course. Irrefutable proof that:
1. Humans come from "ancestors" that resembled gorillas.
2. The fact that another animal uses tools is in some way, shape or form proof of common ancestry between gorillas and humans.
You people are a barrel and a half of laughs. You should read your posts before sending them off.
Nicola
Frank Sullivan wrote: Who said it was irrefutable proof of anything? It seems like a rather small piece of a very large puzzle. It only speaks to a similarity, not a specific type of similarity (i.e. ancestry) and I don't think anyone here argues that humans share ancestry with gorillas on the basis that gorillas sometimes use tools.
Who said it was irrefutable proof of anything?It seems like a rather
small piece of a very large puzzle. It only speaks to a similarity, not a specific type of similarity (i.e. ancestry) and I don't think anyone here argues that humans share ancestry with gorillas on the basis that gorillas sometimes use tools.
Right. Why post it here, then?
Nicolas
Right. Why post it here, then?
Dana Tweedy wrote: Because it's relevant.
Gorillas are our cousins, not our ancestors.
Our ancestors were apes too, and it shows that cognition and use of tools is not limited to modern humans.
Nicola: You people are a barrel and a half of laughs.
__
Speaking of Barrels of Monkey Laughs -here's something else we primates have in common:
"A preacher thundering from his pulpit about the uniqueness of human beings with their God-given souls would not like to realize that his very gestures, the hairs that rose on his neck, the deepened tones of his outraged voice, and the perspiration that probably ran down his skin under clerical vestments are all manifestations of anger in mammals. If he was sneering at Darwin a bit (one does not need a mirror to know that one sneers), did he remember uncomfortably that a sneer is derived from an animal's lifting its lip to remind an enemy of its fangs? Even while he was denying the principle of evolution, how could a vehement man doubt such intimate evidence?"
SALLY CARRIGHAR, WILD HERITAGE"1996 presidential contender, Pat Buchanan, said something along the lines of `You may believe that you're descended from monkeys, but I believe you're a creature of God.' I guess that Buchanan hadn't considered that one of the basic tenets of Christianity is that God is the Creator of everything, including `monkeys.' It seems to me that one of the basic reasons behind the so-called `creationism' is the feeling that somehow parts of God's creation are not worthy of being our ancestors."
TOM SCHARLE (nd.edu)Carl Zimmer: A Question For the President
Mr. President, I would ask, how do you reconcile your statement that Intelligent Design should be taught alongside evolution with the fact that your administration, like both Republican and Democratic administrations before it, has supported research in evolution by our country's leading scientists, while failing to support a single study that is explicitly based on Intelligent Design? The National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation, and even the Department of Energy have all decided that evolution is a cornerstone to advances in our understanding of diseases, the environment, and even biotechnology. They have found no such value in Intelligent Design. Are they wrong? Can you tell us why?
OldMan wrote:
Gorillas have problem solving skills like humans?I read this a couple of days ago and found it interesting. And it also prompted a question that I have thought about a little bit since then. I realize this is OT but I think I want to ask it any way. Are there any characteristics of humans that make us unique, something that no other species has? We have intelligence but so do others. We can make and use tools, but so can some others. We use language but others seem to also. Problem solving skills seems not to be unique. So just what is? Self-awareness? Thoughts about the future and the past like where did I come from and where am I going? Morality? Worship? I am not really going anywhere with this but am curious what you all might think.
Gorilla Use Tools Like Early Human Ancestors
"In one instance, a female gorilla named Leah tried to wade across a pool of water but found herself waist deep after just a few steps. She retreated, grabbed a branch sticking out of the water, and used it to gauge the water's depth before wading deeper..."
Kermit wrote:
Here's one thing that's unique: because of the complexity of our language, we are able to discuss events and hypothetical situations which aren't here now. Consequences of this include being able to teach *other than by example (but by description), relating personal or tribal history, and sharing imagined scenarios (such as mythologies).Our written language and the recent development of computers extends this to such a degree that the change is as dramatic as the development of speech itself. We can now "remember" things which no single person can remember.
Kermit
NashtOn wrote:
I read this a couple of days ago and found it interesting. And it also prompted a question that I have thought about a little bit since then. I realize this is OT but I think I want to ask it any way. Are there any characteristics of humans that make us unique, something that no other species has? We have intelligence but so do others. We can make and use tools, but so can some others. We use language but others seem to also. Problem solving skills seems not to be unique. So just what is? Self-awareness? Thoughts about the future and the past like where did I come from and where am I going? Morality? Worship? I am not really going anywhere with this but am curious what you all might think.If you can't figure out why you're different than a cockroach or a monkey, don't expect others to do so for you.
This is the kind of abominable thinking thatwill become commonplace if we continue to believe (it's only a belief, not a fact) that we come from some lifeless pond and that we re the product of X2 = 2D×t gone awry.
Nicola
Nicola: If you can't figure out why you're different than a cockroach or a monkey, don't expect others to do so for you.
This is the kind of abominable thinking thatwill become commonplace if we continue to believe (it's only a belief, not a fact) that we come from some lifeless pond and that we re the product of X2 = 2D×t gone awry.
Nicola
--
And, I ask this simple question. Even if we are "different", what profit is it to any of us?
--
OldMan: I read this a couple of days ago and found it interesting. And it also prompted a question that I have thought about a little bit since then. I realize this is OT but I think I want to ask it any way. Are there any characteristics of humans that make us unique, something that no other species has? We have intelligence but so do others. We can make and use tools, but so can some others. We use language but others seem to also. Problem solving skills seems not to be unique. So just what is? Self-awareness? Thoughts about the future and the past like where did I come from and where am I going? Morality? Worship? I am not really going anywhere with this but am curious what you all might think.
--
On one of the Evolution series (PBS) a scientist commented more importantly was that we're here "to tell the story"... (speaking of the geological and fossil record) --no animal questions its origins or where its going. I cannot answer if human beings are special in the divine sense...
"There is an old story of a missionary trying to convert an Indian. The Indian made a little circle in the sand and said, "That is what the Indian knows." Then he made another circle a little larger and said, "That is what missionary knows, but outside there the Indian knows just as much as missionary."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, BlasphemyA few days ago, I had an email conversation on a similar subject:
SPEAKING OF ETERNAL TORMENT
"So, according to these Fathers of Protestantism, after the Fall, every newly born person is automatically damned to hell, with no "freewill" to do or to believe otherwise, unless God gives them the proper "faith" as a gift of his "Divine favor." This means that God is the one who CHOOSES to leave most of mankind in its damned state, i.e., since Adam's fall. Concerning this matter, Luther and Calvin quoted Paul that faith in itself was not a work of man ("by grace [=Divine favor] through faith, and that NOT OF OURSELVES, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8). So, man doesn't even have enough "freewill" to "choose" to have faith, which is a "gift" of God's divine favor, to give to whomever he will, and NOT TO GIVE TO WHOMEVER HE WILL, thus keeping most people DAMNED FROM BIRTH."
-Ed Babinski, Calvinism"Filthy apes --the gaul of Darwin to think we came from such hideous creatures!"
Yet, apes are more blessed than mankind, and have received greater mercy from God.
No ape ever goes to sleep at night, fearing a devil lurking to steal its soul...
No ape ever concerned itself or wasted sleep over creeds or unpardonable sins...
No ape ever was required to give away 10% to strangers...
Above all,
No ape will ever suffer *eternal torment* ...
even Christians will agree with this.Now, what was the benefit of being a son of god?
Paradise sounds nice, if you make it in. But if you don't . . . I'd rather be an ape.Harry McCall: I just heard a Nation Public Radio broadcast on Darwin's idea of evolution. The genetic anthropologist said that Darwin had it mostly right, however we "human" have not simply descended from apes...WE ARE APES.
As intelligent apes, we have use our mind (our ability to speak, write and reason) to make us special. We created our own divine parent (God) and have totally given the mostly male religious writers (Biblical / Theological) absolute control of this mental ability to cause us comfort, but much more, cause us greater fear. Little wonder there is a deep seated fear in the Bible to associate the darkness of night with evil and Satan and the security of the light of day with God's protection.
I think my dog has a happier life than the most religious minds. Eat, sleep, play, have sex (if the vet has not worked on him / her first) and unexpectedly die (without a worry in the world). That's what I call survival without religion!
Human's ability to think has reasoned them into their own "hell" (Religion). Like the Woolly Mammoth, most unprogrammed human minds wonder over to the water hole of religion "truth" for a quick drank of direction only to find that they are no free, but are now stuck in the tare pit of Christian religious dogmas torment and death.
E.T.B.: Nicely put. To which one might add this quotation:
"Creationists criticize evolutionists for the demeaning idea of `coming from apes' and say that man is more noble than that, and then have sermons where man is called a miserable worm worthy to be burned eternally in hell."
WILLIAM BAGLEY
OldMan wrote: Problem solving skills seems not to be unique. So just what is? Self-awareness? Thoughts about the future and the past like where did I come from and where am I going? Morality? Worship?On second thought, my response was not fair to other animal species. Recently I saw a PBS nature program and photographers in the wild observing animals' reactions to death --and they reveal many traits in common with humans, including mourning. Perhaps many animal species do "wonder" about life and death and related questions, more than we'd assume. Maybe in difference to animals, man developed religious concepts to compensate.
I was amazed by the story of one gray wolf they documented. The Omega wolf.. the narrator explained this wolf had been the pack's lifelong scape goat, treated badly, but when the wolf was killed by another animal, they filmed the pack. For SIX WEEKS the pack mourned. Elephants are known to mourn over their dead... and if I'm correct they bury their dead.
This same documentary showed a female monkey with its stillborn baby, hanging on to it for several days, howling in grief, and showed the "confused expression" of the others... a look of grief was on their faces. The zookeepers had to pry the stillborn from this monkey's arms, nothing would do. There were other species they documented, some without the larger, higher functioning brains as the ones mentioned above. Animals do have "souls".
NashtOn wrote: sharon
And, I ask this simple question. Even if we are "different", what profit is it to any of us?Well, for starters, when governments, based on the "evidence" and dogma of Darwinian/naturalistic thinking put the rights of, let's say dogs, on equal standing with yours or your kids, for example. Given how theAnimals (to a great extent) do have equal rights with humans.
Google Animal + Rights + Groups
Animal rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to protect non-human ... a major issue of campaigning for animal-rights groups, particularly in the UK. ...Gn:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have DOMINION OVER the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (KJV)
Gn:1:28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and SUBDUE IT: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (KJV)
I can't think of any phrase which has given more vindication for man to cause entire species to become extinct.
"Remember There Is No Other Animal So Pre-Disposed To Attack And Kill Their Own Kind As Xtian Humans... Lest We Forget...
They should realise that it's the DNA, the eternal zippers that replicate life on our precious Earth all over, every living thing, and human DNA just expresses a human, more the pity it produces Neo-Conservative humans, however, why don't these same people give a damn when they go about allowing other species to go extinct? Then you are really talking Big Crime against nature, but they just care about their bluddy stupid selves, xtianity must be the most ego centric load of clap-trap ever conceived... It just embodies an idea of self centered selfish ego centricity from which they get a mob rule strength of numbers to impose their selfishness on others and reckon they've been given dominion over every other creature, it is the absolute evil and against nature, and remember there is no other animal so pre-disposed to attack and kill their own kind as xtian humans... They just Demonise them first... Lest we forget..."WHERE MY DISTASTE FOR ABORTION COMES FROM
I saw a documentary on the economic problems during the 1970's and a farmer (probably Christian) takes a box full of baby chicks and complaining about the economy, dumps them into a large barrel full of water and drowning them and it aired on network television. After considering this, which troubles me more --a human abortion or these chicks being drowned in a barrel? The cringe I feel is EQUAL.He knew this would trouble people... his bottomline dollar was so very important. He probably felt quite vindicated with his actions by grace and virtue of a couple verses in Genesis. And why would people feel troubled --because we have a conscience, it's called empathy and not exclusive to humans. I hate to see *any* kind of suffering. It has nothing to do with religion or any verse in the Bible. Even the Indians, when they took the life of animals for food they gave great respect to the spirit of the animal. They must have believed the animals had *souls* not too dissimilar from humans. Christians could learn something from them . .
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
Another question I've sometimes wondered about.Many people (due to religion) feel they're a "son of god", rather than a descendant of monkey.
Christians believe, the Lord God speaks to them... moves them in the spirit to do this thing or that thing. What when a Christian is moved in the spirit to commit murder or even commit suicide (as in Jim Jones). The Bible is filled with such grisly tales. That's the "Holy Ghost" at work in man. Frightening how deluded religion can make people.And what about people who believe they're descended from ape? Perhaps they know they must make the special effort to control their "primal urges" and "animal imagination"... no Holy Ghost or God responsible for those "temptations".
The religious mind however takes it (a dangerous thought) as "a sign from god". The wife abuser not only has the Holy Ghost steering him by his egocentric righteous wrath, but has the Bible to confirm God put woman here for one purpose alone, and that to serve man, and if she steps out of line -she deserves death.Get the Facts
In 2000, 1247 women were killed by an intimate partner. ... 12 Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, ...Statistics about Domestic Abuse
Statistics About Domestic Abuse DID YOU KNOW THAT: ... 93% of women who killed their mates had been battered by them. 67% killed them to protect themselves ...Domestic Violence Statistics - Battered Women Who Kill
Of these murders, 102 were classified as domestic killings. ... The average prison sentence of men who kill their women partners is 2 to 6 years. ...Domestic Violence Statistics
Bureau of Justice Statistics: Preventing Domestic Violence Against Women, 1986.
... of women killed in 1992, their relationship to the killer was known in ...VPC - Facts on Firearms and Domestic Violence
Of those female firearm homicides, 1009 women (75 percent) were killed with a
... Domestic violence against women is a disturbingly common occurrence in the ...Statistics On Domestic Violence: Silent Witness National Initiatve
Statistics On Domestic Violence: A National Crises ... Thirty-four percent of the women homicide victims over age 15 are killed by their husbands, ...Violence Against Women in the United States
Every day four women die in this country as a result of domestic ... by their intimate partners is greater than the number of soldiers killed in the Vietnam ...More: Google Statistic Women Killed by Domestic Partner
Many people (due to religion) feel they're a "son of god", rather than a descendant of monkey.
That old cliche "The devil made me do it", would not hold up in a court of law when a person willfully chooses to go and commit a crime. I do despise that about the mental health system --all those flimsy "illnesses" they've invented to excuse unsocial behavior.
i.e., "Compulsive Shopping Disorder".
Man strangles and rapes numerous women, and during interrogation develops "multiple personality disorder" so he can get his butt off the hook for the crimes he willingly, knowingly committed.Back in the ages when Superstition ran amuck, it was demons and devils possessing their souls... and many innocent people were condemned, lynched, burned and otherwise put to death.
God doesn't have any more control in this world over man, than man allows. Man invented the gods and assigned his own worldly nature to God.
W sitting in office, claims he's lead by God.
Murdered so many thousands... and it was "God's Will"...
Does that explain the threat of another pandemic spreading and killing potential millions (if not for science), and all those hurricanes, the Tsunami... disaster upon disaster since Bush has been in office.
Perhaps these things are a "sign" from God?Christians believe, the Lord God speaks to them...No, no... you got it all wrong. God doesn't 'speak'.
YOU speak!You ever live in the Bible Belt? These folks around here will tell you point blank, "God moves them to tend to their gardens", "The Holy Spirit moves them in every action they make", God moves them to speak in tongues, God doesn't speak through their lips? I've spent enough time in church to know different. They wholeheartedly believe "God moves them", "God speaks through them", they are sons of gods, and God thinks for them! They're left with half a brain . . and moved by whatever instinct or wild thought enters their mind. They believe in demons and spiritual warfare controlling mankind. It's a dangerous superstition and belief system. The occasional nutcase believes God wants her to sacrifice her baby, and she cuts its arms off. (Texas? Home of W.)
Ok, that should do it...
NashtOn wrote:
The devil never makes anybody do anything. It's our desires that push us to be tempted and sin is conceived in this manner.
G-d knows your thoughts before you even think them, according to scripture.
Free will is never taken away, not in the manner you're implying, and G-d always provides us with a way out.HTH.
PS. If you're going to dis the scriptures, understand them first.
Here goes.
The good lord sits around uselessly counting hairs on mens' heads and sparrows as they fall dead --but can't afford mankind a cure for the common cold. Now there's intelligence for you, or at least a lack of fatherly priority. Take your pick.
NashtOn wrote:
~Cow dung snipped
I'm sorry, professor. You need to demonstrate a causal effect between religion and the data you provided.
Nicola
"These groups usually trace their beginnings to a male supreme being (Benderly 1982, p. 42)"
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Status, violence and culture: anthropological issuesAn anthropological perspective on rape is provided by Sanday (1981) using a cross-cultural examination of 156 separate societies. Although these societies were studied at different times by different anthropologists with different focuses (this last a relevant point in the likelihood of disclosing sensitive information about rape), Sanday nevertheless found sufficient information about rape to analyse ninety-five of the societies.
Some 47 per cent of the societies experienced little or no rape, 17 per cent were 'unambiguously rape-prone', while the remaining 36 per cent had evidence of rape but no clear indication of its incidence. These last were incorporated into the 'rape-prone' category. Sanday found patterns of behaviour that differed markedly between the two kinds of society. As Benderly (1982) summarises:
Societies with a high incidence of rape . . . tolerate violence and encourage men and boys to be tough, aggressive, and competitive. Men in such cultures generally have special, politically important gathering spots off limits to women, whether they be the Mundurucu men's club or the corner tavern. Women take little or no part in public decision making or religious rituals: men mock or scorn women's practical judgment. They also demean what they consider women's work and remain aloof from childbearing and rearing. These groups usually trace their beginnings to a male supreme being (Benderly 1982, p. 42).Benderly's conclusion is that:
The way society trains its boys and girls to think about themselves and each other determines to a large extent how rape-prone or rape-free that society will be (1982, p. 43).
Are there any characteristics of humans that make us unique, something that no other species has?a...@sci.sci wrote: Only humans have devised artificial languages whereby we can write programs for computers, which only we have invented and produced. Only humans have invented devices for communicating over long distances, whereby humans throughout the surface of Earth, and even in orbit around Earth, or on the Moon (in 1969-72) can communicate with each other at nearly the speed of light. Only humans have turned cultivation of crops into a major business and technology whereby owners of farms can market their crops on a worldwide market.
Sharon: The gorilla used a stick for a tool, some species do use tools, but humans are the species that manipulate the environment to make machines, and now the machines are making (and breaking) man.
RELATED LINKS
Intelligent Design For Dummies
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Babinski's dangerous comments on the all too familiar teachings in holy books, females being there to serve and obey males, which is ALSO the message of the apes of the secular world as well. Some history on persecution of woman, past and present.What is Intelligent Design?
Questioning the purpose and intent of Intelligent Design advocates. Is this a last ditch attempt to drag scientific progress backwards due to man's natural disposition toward superstition and fear of the unknown?George Bush and Intelligent Design
George Bush intends to add ID Hypothesis to the public school cirriculum so children 'understand the debate'. After review, one can conclude Bush does not understand the debate himself. He must likewise include such counterpart hypothesis as 'ignorant design' and the 'divine tinkerer hypothesis, including the non-design hypothesis of atheism. Evolution does not attempt to answer 'why' we are here, but confirms through empirical evidence 'how' we got here. Does GWB intend the course to provide children with insight into the many flaws in ID Hypothesis, or scientific points debunking it?SETI and Intelligent Design
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After publication of his book "The Atheism of Astronomy" in 1945, a reply to critics on the evolution of human intelligence, the biological world and astronomy.
Article last updated October 22, 2005
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