From: Bo Zimmerman
To: Sharon
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003
Subject: Crewing...BTW, I finally got around to looking into the number of times the cock crows in the other 3 gospels. Nowhere does it state, in the other three gospels, that the cock only crowed once. Instead, in two of them, it merely states that the cock does crow, without stating whether it be twelve times or only once. So how did you derive that it was only once in the other gospels? Also, it isn't mentioned in John at all, which makes me wonder (yet again) where you are getting your information.
To save time, here are the relevant versus from the two non-Mark gospels where the story of Peter and the cock crowing is mentioned:
Matthew 26:34 - Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Matthew 26:74 - Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Matthew 26:75 - And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Luke 22:34 - And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
Luke 22:60 - And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
Luke 22:61 - And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
- Bo
From: Sharon
To: Bo Zimmerman
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: Crewing...BTW, I finally got around to looking into the number of times the cock crows in the other 3 gospels. Nowhere does it state, in the other three gospels, that the cock only crowed once. Instead, in two of them, it merely states that the cock does crow, without stating whether it be twelve times or only once. So how did you derive that it was only once in the other gospels? Also, it isn't mentioned in John at all, which makes me wonder (yet again) where you are getting your information.
To save time, here are the relevant versus from the two non-Mark gospels where the story of Peter and the cock crowing is mentioned:
Matthew 26:34 - Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
- - that rooster would not crow at all, until Peter had denied him three times. No crow. It doesn't matter how many times it crowed after Peter denied him 3 times. Why? Because Mark contradicts, saying that Peter denied and the cock crew. Peter denied again, and the cock crew.
In Mark, Peter had not denied Jesus 3 times, but the rooster was already crowing on the second denial.
It contradicts the other 3 gospels.
"before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice".If that rooster crowed, even so much as one time, before Jesus was denied thrice... it was and is still, a contradiction.
Matthew 26:75 - And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
That rooster was NOT suppose to crow at all until Peter denies him THREE times.
Mark 14:68 - But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch and the COCK CREW. (Peter had not yet denied Jesus 3 times... but only once.)
Verse 69: - a maid accuses Peter. Peter denies Jesus a second time (but the cock has already crowed.)
Verse 70: - the people nearby Peter accuse him of Jesus, and a third time he denies, and the cock crows a second time.It is then Peter (only in the book of Mark) calls to mind, the saying "Before the cock crows twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."
That is in complete contradiction with the other 3 Gospels.
From: Bo Zimmerman
To: Sharon
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003
Subject: RE: Crewing...Hmm... Well, I guess we have to disagree on this one.
In Mark, each crowing is delineated, so that we see that the crow had only done so once after the first denial, but as Jesus predicted, did not do so twice until after the third denial.
In the other ****TWO**** gospels (not 3 -- no mention in John, despite the fact that you keep repeating "other 3"), each crowing (first or the second, it's not clear) is not delineated, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
- Bo
From: Sharon
To: Ed T. Babinski
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003
Subject: Fw: Crewing...I'm sure you already know this, I noticed it in the NIV last night, but said nothing, until I'm clear myself as to what the meaning of this information implies...
The NIV, book of Mark states c30 "Some early manuscripts do not have twice"
c68 "Some early manuscripts entryway and the rooster crowed"
72 "Some early manuscripts do not have the second time"
d72 "Some early manuscripts do not have twice"What is the meaning of this?
From: "Edward Babinski"
To: Sharon
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003
Subject: Re: Fw: Crewing...Textual variants in different New Testament manuscripts.
From: Sharon
To: "Edward Babinski"
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003
Subject: Re: Fw: Crewing...In my understanding the older the manuscript is... the more accurate it is. And if the scriptures were not originally there, to imply two crows - - then, my question is, did the original manuscripts for Mark tend to lean toward the accounts found in the other 3 Gospels, with only one crow. In my reasoning, it could create a problem, as for a legitimate contradiction. Maybe I can look that up sometime in that book I've got "The Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts"... can you read Greek?
From: "Edward Babinski"
To: Sharon
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003
Subject: How many times, and when and to whom did Peter deny Christ?Speaking of cocks crowing, Dave Matson once did a booklet on the question of how many times, when, and to whom Peter denied Christ, i.e., according to all four Gospels. Good booklet. Ask him to email the article to you if he can. Lot's of problems for Bible believers there!
Also, Lindell, who wrote BATTLE FOR THE BIBLE, once agreed that there were problems with trying to reconcile all four Gospel descriptions of when, and where, and to whom Peter denied Christ. Lindell suggested that if worse came to worse, a Bible believer could always resort to suggesting that Peter denied Christ 12 times! That means that each Gospel described completely separate instances of Peter's denials, each Gospel author only writing about there of the different times Peter denied Christ, which would add up to 12 completely different times! Of course that's absurd, but that's how the Bible believer's mind will work, any explanation to overcome difficulties.
Of course Lindell's explanation doesn't hold water for the simple fact that there each Gospel also says that Peter only denied Jesus three times, not "12!"
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Article last updated October 22, 2005
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